Timeline for Can "zero" be used to describe uncountable nouns?
Current License: CC BY-SA 3.0
12 events
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| Dec 8, 2014 at 19:18 | comment | added | Ben Kovitz | Yes, I think we basically agree. If we have a difference, it's a matter of emphasis. It's probably best that both our answers are up, and I'll try to improve mine based on what I've learned from this conversation. I especially like your example of zero good to illustrate clear-cut ungrammaticality, yet only a fluent speaker can see why that's so much worse. | |
| Dec 8, 2014 at 19:07 | comment | added | Ben Kovitz | I don't think either of us thinks that frequency counts of a phrase are conclusive evidence of grammaticality, since phrases are grammatical the first time they're used, but here's a bit more evidence. | |
| Dec 8, 2014 at 19:06 | comment | added | FumbleFingers | @Ben: Unless I'm much mistaken, you and I agree that there are some contexts (involving certain words, in certain real-world situations) where at least some speakers wouldn't object to using "zero" as a quantifier for a non-countable, abstract quality. But acceptability varies from person to person, so the only useful advice remains "don't do it". | |
| Dec 8, 2014 at 18:55 | comment | added | Ben Kovitz | Happily, your comments here have indeed given me some ideas to improve my answer, plus I added a comment on the question itself. Do you have any thoughts about explaining to EFL learners how to understand and learn from real usage—in this case, second-rate usage? (That seems to be what the OP is actually trying to do.) | |
| Dec 8, 2014 at 18:46 | comment | added | FumbleFingers | @Ben: Well, I've upvoted your answer mainly because of "rhetorical flourish". I think it is valid to say the usage is "ungrammatical". As evidence, I'd cite the fact that there are no written instances of "showed zero courage" or "gave zero benefit" in Google Books - but there are thousands of the former, and tens of thousands of the latter using no instead of zero. Some deviations from "valid" grammar are acceptable in casual speech in certain circumstances, but the general principle here for learners should simply be "avoid this usage, or risk seeming illiterate". | |
| Dec 8, 2014 at 18:33 | comment | added | Ben Kovitz | Indeed the current votes suggest that this is a matter of ordinary grammar, which is wrong. I hope that whatever answer gets selected (if that ever happens) indicates clearly that zero courage is a variation from normal usage, and explains what a speaker is trying to do by making that variation: namely, "punch up" the ordinary phrase a bit (in a rather hackneyed way). | |
| Dec 8, 2014 at 18:23 | comment | added | FumbleFingers | @Ben: Exactly. But based on answers+votes here, a casual visitor to this question would probably be left with the impression OP's cited usage is "normal, acceptable". Whereas so far as I'm concerned it's well beyond the pale in all but the most casual/colloquial speech, and even then I'd be inclined to suspect the linguistic competence of the speaker. | |
| Dec 8, 2014 at 18:12 | comment | added | Ben Kovitz | Yes, zero interest also sounds acceptable to me, as the same informal, emphatic kind of phrasing as zero courage. And yes to your second point, too: while I think that making mistakes and getting corrected is an important part of learning, not to be prevented, wrestling with the subtleties of when zero can and cannot replace no does not seem like a fruitful use of a learner's time. This sort of thing requires an ear for the language, which comes from experience, not from rules people can memorize. | |
| Dec 6, 2014 at 13:13 | comment | added | FumbleFingers | @Ben: Would you also accept that "This topic holds zero interest for me" (with a few written instances in Google Books there) is either "acceptable", or at least "not as unacceptable" as my "It's zero good" (which has zero instances)? I know some learners will think "Ah! This looks subtle and interesting. I'd really like to master this aspect of idiomatic use!". But I stand by my final paragraph - too much effort, too little benefit, and too much risk of still getting it wrong. | |
| Dec 6, 2014 at 4:11 | comment | added | Ben Kovitz | This native speaker agrees with your assessment of zero good. | |
| Apr 4, 2013 at 0:47 | history | edited | FumbleFingers | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
added 95 characters in body
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| Apr 3, 2013 at 4:58 | history | answered | FumbleFingers | CC BY-SA 3.0 |