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situation: I visited a factory and next day updating my boss my visit.

verbal Explanation on next day I visited their factory yesterday. they shown the HMI simulation. there itself ( to mean during the demo of HMI itself) I given my comments on the visualization of HMI was not looking good.

Query My explanation, is it conveying proper meaning? "there itself" is it right sentence? is it used by the native?

  • Your sentence is not grammatical at all. Not sure what you are trying to say. – Lambie Feb 3 '18 at 17:10
  • @Lambie Thank you, I can understand that but this is how I am framing most of my sentence. may be I am not thinking in English. Could you please mention specific part which is more confusing? – Aayvu.com Feb 3 '18 at 17:15
  • @Aayvu.com Do you mean "While they were running the simulation"? I think you are trying to translate a certain phrase from your language word-for-word and coming up with "there itself", but this is not English. I'm making a wild guess that that phrase of yours means "Right then and there" (click on this link and look at #12). – tenebris2020 Feb 3 '18 at 17:32
  • @tenebris2020, yes. your guess was right. On the spot during the demo I have given my comments is what I want to convey. instead of "there itself" Can I replace "right there during that demo itself i given my comments"? – Aayvu.com Feb 3 '18 at 17:44
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    Interestingly, the collocation then and there was way more common than there and then a century ago. A preference since reversed in BrE, but not AmE – FumbleFingers Feb 3 '18 at 17:51
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A very common idiomatic usage for OP's context would be...

I visited their factory yesterday. They showed me the HMI simulation then and there.

Note that as a Brit I was initially going to write there and then. But because I knew both sequences were in use, I checked this NGram, which clearly shows that then and there is and always has been far more common overall.

So it turns out that there's a significant US/UK usage split here, but I doubt many people on either side of the pond would know that, or think there was anything unusual if they encountered the sequence that's less common among their fellow countrymen.


I should also add that in most contexts where the expression would be used, where implies when and when implies where (since the "referent" is usually a specific time and place). Using both is thus a device to add emphasis, which is often amplified even more with right there and then (About 160,000 results) or right then and there (About 27,300,000 results!).

It's interesting to speculate why Brits in particular should have decided about 50 years ago that there should come before then (and by implication, be more contextually important), even though they also had the opposite preference a century ago.

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