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If a main clause is in past simple and a subordinated clause is in past perfect but a subordinated clause has its own subordinated clause that happens simultaneously with the clause in past perfect, what tense will this subordinated clause of a subordinated clause stand in?

E.g can in the sentence "He stood where he had thought that he had had a chance" the clause "where he had thought" be interpreted as a simultaneous one with the clause "that he he had a chance" or there has to be past simple?

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  • There is no need for the second past perfect. What he thought was "I have a chance", so 'having a chance' didn't happen before the thinking. Commented Oct 14 at 13:41
  • Can you explicitly set out the sequence of events? Did he think he had a chance before he stood there, at the time he moved over there, or while he remained standing there? Did he think he had a chance at the time he was thinking, or think he had a chance in the past before when he was thinking?
    – Stuart F
    Commented Oct 14 at 13:48
  • He thought he had a chance at the same time when he was thinking Commented Oct 14 at 13:58
  • He thought he had a chance at the same time as he was thinking.
    – Lambie
    Commented Oct 14 at 17:15

2 Answers 2

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"He stood where he had thought that he had had a chance"

He stood = simple past tense

"had thought that he had had a chance" = both occur at the same moment and they preceded the moment where he stood.

He played the tune when he had seen the boy had come onto the stage.

If the idea makes sense, there is no problem with the subordinate clauses containing two ideas that occurred before the one in the simple past.

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  • The thinking and having a chance are not necessarily happening at the same time. On Sunday I may be talking about how I woke up on Saturday morning thinking that on Friday night I had had a chance.
    – TimR
    Commented Oct 14 at 14:51
  • @TimR Yes,but they could, which is my point.
    – Lambie
    Commented Oct 14 at 15:14
  • At this point I don't know whether OP is interested in resolving ambiguity or looking for a serviceable sentence to express something. So I just pointed out the ambiguity.
    – TimR
    Commented Oct 14 at 15:28
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If, while standing in a certain place, he thought "I have missed my chance" and then later you want to have him revisit that place and reminisce about his thoughts at the time:

He stood there where he had thought he had missed his chance.

That's grammatical but clunky in its use of the past perfect twice. Moreover, one might infer that he was wrong to have thought that he had missed his chance. He had still had a chance.

But would be better to use the simple past twice and the past perfect once?

He stood there where he thought that he had missed his chance.

No, it's not better, because "where he thought" doesn't clearly indicate that now it is a reminiscence about a prior occasion when he thought "I have missed my chance".

So what do we do? Has the English language painted us into a corner?

We include another little word:

He stood there where he once thought that he had missed his chance.

once puts the verb it modifies at one remove temporally from the context-time, so that if the context is past, the verb that once modifies happens in the far past, and if the context is present, the verb that once modifies happens in the simple past.

I once thought the earth was flat.

could be paraphrased as "I used to think the earth was flat".

Thus, your sentence:

He stood where he once thought that he had had a chance

Your context begins "He stood..." so its context is past, and once puts the thinking in the far past.

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"had had a chance" uses HAVE in two different ways, of course, as auxiliary and as lexical verb.

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  • If he thought he had a chance (at the same time when he was thinking) and both those events (thinking and having a chance) happened simultaneously and earlier than "standing" then both events (thinking and having) must be in past perfect? Commented Oct 14 at 15:00
  • @PetroProbka Do you mean He thought, "I have a chance" ? Is that what he was thinking?
    – TimR
    Commented Oct 14 at 15:07
  • Yes, I mean this thing Commented Oct 14 at 15:09
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    He stood where he thought he had a chance. The standing and the thinking and the having a chance can but need not all exist simultaneously with that sentence. We can fix that fragility with once. The tenses are fine. He stood where he once thought he had a chance. There,the thinking and having a chance occur simultaneously, but the standing occurs at some time later. Since your sentence lacks detail, I have no idea what you might mean. Is he trying to make a basketball shot? See the prince pass by?
    – TimR
    Commented Oct 14 at 15:17
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    "had had a chance" is not needed nor is it clear in its meaning. That's the point.
    – TimR
    Commented Oct 14 at 15:30

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