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John went to his aunt's for the summer holidays. After his stay there was over, he took a train home. When the train arrived at the station, he got off and ran towards his parents to greet them. Bob was also at the station at that time and witnessed all of this. Later, Bob told Sarah about what he had seen:

Before the train had stopped, John jumped out of it and ran towards his parents, who were waiting for him at the station.

Can the above sentence be used in this context? Does it mean that John literally jumped out of the train before it stopped, or is it a figure of speech meaning that right after the train stopped, he got off immediately and ran towards his parents? If it's the latter, I suppose the bolded "had" is essential to that meaning and cannot be omitted. What do you think on this one? Thank you.

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  • Is this a quotation?
    – Stuart F
    Commented Nov 11 at 22:02
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    If we're trying to escape spies who are following us on the train, I could say to you "Jump out of the train before it has stopped". The perfect conveys the idea of a state fully achieved. The state being fully achieved can be mapped to a point in time and thus the temporal preposition before refers to some time in advance of that point in time. In other words, don't wait for the train to come to a full stop but jump out when it's still coming to a stop.
    – TimR
    Commented Nov 11 at 22:18
  • @prof1589 As I understand from your title and If it's the latter, I suppose the bolded "had" is essential to that meaning and cannot be omitted. Your query is whether this clause could be written in Simple Past.
    – James Mathai
    Commented Nov 12 at 4:18
  • @StuartF It's not a quotation. I wrote it myself. Some time ago, I was reading a book and came across a similar scenario, where there was a sentence with "before" and the past perfect. I don't remember the title and the author, though.
    – prof1589
    Commented Nov 12 at 13:45
  • @JamesMathai Yes, you're right.
    – prof1589
    Commented Nov 12 at 13:47

2 Answers 2

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It's not a figure of speech. There's no reason to suppose that it should not be taken literally: the train was still moving (albeit slowly) when John alighted from it.

The word "had" puts that clause into the past perfect, which makes sense, as at the time (in the present) as John jumps off, the train "has not yet stopped". When you tell the story, you would use the past tense "When John jumped off, the train had not yet stopped". A perfect in a past tense narrative is a past perfect.

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    Of course, with modern trains, this is impossible. The doors don't open until after the train has stopped. With older trains, the doors didn't lock and could easily be opened while the train was moving.
    – James K
    Commented Nov 11 at 20:47
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    A typical sight at a London terminus in the morning rush hour up to the 1990s was a 'slam-door' train entering a platform and all of the doors (and there were lots) opening at once and commuters jumping out while the train was still moving. A number of widely publicised deaths led to legislation requiring door locking system interlocked with the driver's controls so that the train could not move while it was possible to open any doors. Of course these doors were hinged like the ones on a car. Modern trains have power-operated sliding doors under the control of the driver or guard.
    – Michael Harvey
    Commented Nov 11 at 20:56
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    Although you can logically justify it, I think the Perfect verb form is completely unnecessary in X happened before Y [had] happened contexts, since the sequence of events is already made explicit by the word before. If you don't need the more complex verb form, don't use it.
    – FumbleFingers
    Commented Nov 11 at 22:20
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    @FumbleFingers agree, it's not required, but it's not wrong, and this is a perfectly normal and natural use of the past perfect.
    – James K
    Commented Nov 11 at 22:44
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    Doors that opened with a handle could also be used by people trying to jump on a train as it was leaving a station, this is probably more dangerous (the train is gaining speed, not losing it) and people were dragged, or fell, under trains, with deplorable consequences. Foreign visitors could not understand why such a dangerous thing was still allowed.
    – Michael Harvey
    Commented Nov 11 at 23:03
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I. Past Perfect with earlier action

The past perfect tense is commonly used to describe an action that occurred before another past action. It’s formed by using "had" with the past participle of the main verb.

II. Past Perfect with "Before"

Using "before" + past perfect effectively indicates that an action was incomplete or unfulfilled when another action in the past occurred. This highlights that one action was ongoing or pending when the other action took place.

In the example:

"Before the train had stopped, John jumped out of it."

The past perfect ("had stopped") suggests the train was still in the process of stopping when John jumped out.
This structure— "before" + past perfect— shows that one action was interrupted or uncompleted when something else occurred.

Reference britishcouncil.org We can also use before + past perfect to show that an action was not done or was incomplete when the past simple action happened.
.
They left before I'd spoken to them..
Sadly, the author died before he'd finished the series..
.
Past perfect after before

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  • How does had "emphasize that ... the train stopping ... was incomplete"?
    – TimR
    Commented Nov 12 at 11:25
  • @TimR There is "before" in the sentence. But the action are not in chronological order. "had" is there. Emphasis to draw attention to the fact. giving) special importance or attention (to something). A dog bites man is not news. Similarly John alighting after the train stopped is normal.
    – James Mathai
    Commented Nov 12 at 12:56
  • But that doesn't answer how "had" emphasizes incompleteness. It does just the opposite: the perfect expresses completeness. It is before [completed act] that expresses incompleteness there.
    – TimR
    Commented Nov 12 at 19:49

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